Curse

Laura Whitefox · Nov 12, 2005, 10:26 AM // 10:26

I think this update doesnt reach its intended goal in many way... u can still farm with monks tho its slower thats true. Are boters nerfed? i dont think so... ...they will only get the cash a bit slower like 4/5 of the income in the same time as they did so far. But it has a large impact on most of the player classes, not to mention the ele fire line that mostly consists of aoe spells...

Besides a funny thing:
Lets say you go out with some players and u notice a mob.
You say:
"Hey funny boy!"
Mob:
Wha'? Ya talking to MEEE??? Im gonna KILLL UUUUU!!
so he runs up to you then you use a 0 smiting balts aura and he takes like 8 dmg
then he say:
WTF? Im taking 8 dmg/sec! /scared U bastard! u trying to kill me??? Im outa here!
*runs* *runs* *runs*
W8! i changed my mind! im still gonna KILL UUUU!!
*runs up to you again*
*8dmg/sec* *8dmg/sec*
Oh the HELL with it!
*runs away again*
But while he is on the move he suddenly notice an earth ele and he thinks:
Hey! soft target!! Now u r gonner little ele!!
quickly rushes to her and starts the beat up. The ele casts a 106 dmg obsidian flame.
Mob:
Huh? 106 dmg? Nah... r u kidding girl? U r soft...
then someone runs up and uses an 8dmg/sec balts again
Mob:
OMFG 8dmg/sec!?!? gooodddamit im on the run!

hehe no comment

Personaly i can live with the update but im not very happy about it. It affects too much skill's effectiveness severly, and thus the players using them. And im not talking about one or 2 ppl. Yes u can use the aoes to shoo away some unwanted attention, but thats not real purpose of aoe attacks. They r meant to deal considerable dmg over an entire area but now they barely do it. What they DO now is to break off the enemy from the tanks so they can entertain the casters

...so whats the point in having tanks then? I can see the point in making this update, but thats not the way it meant to be done. It should be reduced so they dont run from every aoe just from specific ones like meteor shower or something. Any other ideas?

P.S.:sorry for my bad english

Tactical-Dillusions · Nov 12, 2005, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Hey Laura, i was using ignite arrows on an azure shadow yesterday and it ran so far away from me, it stopped attacking and stood still.

Best-DEFENSIVE-skill-ever!

Laura Whitefox · Nov 12, 2005, 10:52 AM // 10:52

^^ You must be right. I think someone said that specific mobs tend to have a diversity in their reaction to aoes. Some run a few steps than back others run to the other end of the world

But i have a question about it:
Anyone tried using for example balts aura and then what Tactical-Dillusions said iginite arrows on the SAME mob type?
i wonder if its the skill or the mob itself that makes the difference... O_o

Tho i have a feeling it can be the skill... I mean u hit him with ignite = he is on the run, but u keep firing on him and every hit is an aoe in ignite prep = he wants to run away from that too

huh FUN! Rangers to shoo everything away!! thx 4 the tip Tactical ^^
lol just an idea but maybe You can keep Glint running around with this prep so she cant even attack (maybe you can do the same with enemy monks so they dont heal, rather run?)? O_o and what about the lich?

LOL! thx again for posting Your experience with this!

unienaule · Nov 12, 2005, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Since nobody has mentioned it, it seems bosses are not affected much by this update.

Maiyn · Nov 12, 2005, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I really feel this update is brutal for people who don't have a lot of skills.

Being a player with well developed PvE characters.. I am not hurt by this so much. Yet, with skills costing 1p and this HUGE INSANE nerf... I really feel terribly for players with less gold.

We can work around it, but this will not be the solution for farming. I wish you guys weren't so against farming. You're completely alienating a large group of post-diablo 2 players who enjoy doing such things. We don't rip people off, we don't sell ebay gold. We enjoy grinding and finding items/gold. WHAT is so wrong with that.

I know that you've said again and again that you don't hate honourable farmers, and that the bot-like human ebay gold sellers are the problem, and I accept that. However, I dunno. This just sorta killed things for not only farmers, but for a lot of the general pve crowd. ESPECIALLY the elementalists, ouch. Seriously.

Finally, SF farming is still highly possible.. they group enough, and you need to block in the bosses so they don't run from the nukes. Water (slowing) magic is also a good idea. Farming the desert is useless now, although it's possible.. but wtf is the point

Dunno what else to say. Ecto, and many other goods are going to skyrocket in the next while.

I'm just pissed about selling my 20% rockmolder :P I didn't realize it was a bug.. ughh.. that's what i'm pissed about screw the update

Ah well...

aron searle · Nov 12, 2005, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Well thanks a bunch ANET, i hate this sodding update.

Some of my guildees have now left, some good players that were always their to help others for missions ect.

They are fed up with everything taking longer to kill, and being more of a grind (NOT HARDER BUT LONGER).

Yea this update sucks monkey balls now.

Sister Rosette · Nov 12, 2005, 12:01 PM // 12:01

On a side note, does Heal Area cause them to flee as well? If so
Monks just got a major boost.

4thVariety · Nov 12, 2005, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Although the chaotic state of this threat is testament to the fact that a discusion developing into diiferent directions can no longer be done effectively, the attempt to create a seperate threat for ONE of the different aspects prominent in this chaotic 52page mess was closed.
I repost here with the hope of getting a discussion; knowing that when I check back in 3 h, it will be lost in a hailstorm of posts.

Discussion of several aspects is clearly not wanted.
It is like the update a take it all or leave it all pollicy.

SAD.

But here's my post anyway

Imagine this:
A mob of players all cramming next to a player who casts, Renewal-Baltarar's to scare enemies away. Lighning flashes out and kills monsters as the mob slowly moves through the FoW.
The Ultimate John Wayne, Circle of Bandwagon, Indians build. RIDICULOUS.

Formerly you could just nuke all enemy monks, then nuke everything; now you need another tactic. But from experience I know that for the most part, I just nuked the monk anyway and then kicked back, after all, the prot monks and the warriors want some fun too.

Now I cannot change my build in the sense that I'm more flexible.
I do not have a choice.
A new maximum spike dmg build will replace the old max AoD build.
A forced perspective once more.
The game will relentlessy cry out for THE BEST, and only THE BEST.
I had other very good and flexible builds except Renewal or Echo Nuker.
But in the end people questioned my waste of effectiveness, so I skilled Fire 16.
Now they will still only take me if my effectiveness is 100%.

Soon people will also adapt to the new gamestyle.
People hate chaotic battles.
All AoD does is create chaos.
But in order to play effective, chaos hat to be eliminated.
Therefore the patch eliminated 40% of the game's spells plus Orion, plus Cynn, since all they do now is to create chaos.

I can understand why people are unhappy.
On Nov 10th they were happy, the were equal firenukers, happy with it and the POSSIBILITY of a choice was enough.
Now their happy place is removed and they are FORCED to abandon that which made them happy.
All that without something familiar to fall back on.

Another point the update touches is the delicate balance of the economy.
on Nov. 9th a historic thing happened. For the first time during my 500h of playing I was able to purchase something like a 10/9 sunderung sword grip WITHOUT farming. Suddenly it was affordable.

With farming gone that item will once again vanish in the depths. I will most likely never find (and salvage not to forget), or be able to pay the price.

And it sickens me to the heart to see people divide into the group of whiners and the group of "hey we're pro, we don't care"
Who is going to help the people through the game?
With experienced players now gone, whole missions have to be redone.

Pro Players surely do not mind, they can do Thunderhead and the Island of Fire like they want.

Less experienced player find themself stranded without strategy and I doubt that everyone will have the stomache to suffer through. We are talking about 14-18 year old kids here being one of the focus groups. When they get frustrated they just QUIT !!!

As for my characters:
Before I had a Fire-ele to have fun an kill stuff.
But faced with the prospects of spiking I rather just take my warrior, he can spike just as much, plus has better spell disruption, better Armor, gets less attacked now.....
It's not my choice, the way the game cries out for the best config will MAKE me do this if I don't do it my self beforehand.

Bottom Line:
We like mindless Enemy hordes rushing to their certain doom as they attack the inconquereable warrior, the death raining ele, the undead necro army etc. etc.
Enemies that avaoid AoD is outside ANY Hollywood logic we have grown to accept as entertainment.

Tough PvP like battles with every single group on the map is not something that one would get money for if he went with that concept to a publisher.

Mekanic · Nov 12, 2005, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

Although the chaotic state of this threat is testament to the fact that a discusion developing into diiferent directions can no longer be done effectively, the attempt to create a seperate threat for ONE of the different aspects prominent in this chaotic 52page mess was closed.
I repost here with the hope of getting a discussion; knowing that when I check back in 3 h, it will be lost in a hailstorm of posts.

Discussion of several aspects is clearly not wanted.
It is like the update a take it all or leave it all pollicy.

SAD.

But here's my post anyway

Imagine this:
A mob of players all cramming next to a player who casts, Renewal-Baltarar's to scare enemies away. Lighning flashes out and kills monsters as the mob slowly moves through the FoW.
The Ultimate John Wayne, Circle of Bandwagon, Indians build. RIDICULOUS.

Formerly you could just nuke all enemy monks, then nuke everything; now you need another tactic. But from experience I know that for the most part, I just nuked the monk anyway and then kicked back, after all, the prot monks and the warriors want some fun too.

Now I cannot change my build in the sense that I'm more flexible.
I do not have a choice.
A new maximum spike dmg build will replace the old max AoD build.
A forced perspective once more.
The game will relentlessy cry out for THE BEST, and only THE BEST.
I had other very good and flexible builds except Renewal or Echo Nuker.
But in the end people questioned my waste of effectiveness, so I skilled Fire 16.
Now they will still only take me if my effectiveness is 100%.

Soon people will also adapt to the new gamestyle.
People hate chaotic battles.
All AoD does is create chaos.
But in order to play effective, chaos hat to be eliminated.
Therefore the patch eliminated 40% of the game's spells plus Orion, plus Cynn, since all they do now is to create chaos.

I can understand why people are unhappy.
On Nov 10th they were happy, the were equal firenukers, happy with it and the POSSIBILITY of a choice was enough.
Now their happy place is removed and they are FORCED to abandon that which made them happy.
All that without something familiar to fall back on.

Another point the update touches is the delicate balance of the economy.
on Nov. 9th a historic thing happened. For the first time during my 500h of playing I was able to purchase something like a 10/9 sunderung sword grip WITHOUT farming. Suddenly it was affordable.

With farming gone that item will once again vanish in the depths. I will most likely never find (and salvage not to forget), or be able to pay the price.

And it sickens me to the heart to see people divide into the group of whiners and the group of "hey we're pro, we don't care"
Who is going to help the people through the game?
With experienced players now gone, whole missions have to be redone.

Pro Players surely do not mind, they can do Thunderhead and the Island of Fire like they want.

Less experienced player find themself stranded without strategy and I doubt that everyone will have the stomache to suffer through. We are talking about 14-18 year old kids here being one of the focus groups. When they get frustrated they just QUIT !!!

As for my characters:
Before I had a Fire-ele to have fun an kill stuff.
But faced with the prospects of spiking I rather just take my warrior, he can spike just as much, plus has better spell disruption, better Armor, gets less attacked now.....
It's not my choice, the way the game cries out for the best config will MAKE me do this if I don't do it my self beforehand.

Bottom Line:
We like mindless Enemy hordes rushing to their certain doom as they attack the inconquereable warrior, the death raining ele, the undead necro army etc. etc.
Enemies that avaoid AoD is outside ANY Hollywood logic we have grown to accept as entertainment.

Tough PvP like battles with every single group on the map is not something that one would get money for if he went with that concept to a publisher.

Quoted for truth, and adding another forementioned thought. As people have said this makes PvE more like PvP. Well I personally hate PvP, thats why I play PvE. But the main problem is, when you go to tombs to fight, you don't expect someone to come at you with armor with an AL of 100, attacking for an unbelieveable amount of damage, and be lvl 29, not to mention that there will be 15 of them vs. your 8.

The ONLY thing the player of this game had over the baddys is intelligence, we have weaker armor, less health, don't do as much dmg, and are in some cases -9 lvls to them. Now you expect us to be happy and play the game when the line of player intelligence and monster idiocy is so skewed?

I played all night. Found a new way to farm, much slower, but thats do to the mobs loosing aggro so fast now. And also found, that there is almost no way there will be another good FoW or UW team to join. AoE smites scatter, AoE fire scatters, rangers traps scatter.

In short, A.Net has taken all the things I enjoyed about playing this game, and got rid of them with no notice, no warning, no explenation, and no reason.

huh · Nov 12, 2005, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Ahhh been away for a while and GW has so many new things I feel lost!
The two big threads regarding the updates are filled with "flames" (inverted commas cos I didn't read much and don't know if they're really flames or discussions...52 pages and the other is about 10 pages = too much reading for me).

Anyway, I tried farming to see what the big fuss was about, and couldn't get more than a couple of griffons to chase me and ran away once balthy's aura was switched on. Yeah farming takes hell of a lot longer now.
On the other hand, I hope that the drops have been improved so that whatever we get is actually useful.
Got a gold flame artifact just now (flame! woohoo!) and the only mod on it was quick recovery from crippled...

But I haven't really gone out farming yet so I've no idea if drops have been buffed.
I think this upgrade pumps a new breath of fresh air into this game (continuing on from the Halloween event).
No more simple-minded cut-and-paste-kill-everything-within-3-minutes builds (although I'd expect those to come soon).

My opinion is that Anet knows how people hate it when updates screw up the farming, and its a challenge to see how much we can counter their "nerfs". Moreover, it gives people new things to do, experiment with builds, include other professions, etc.
I, for one, was getting bored to shit with farming the griffons with the wamo build. I never changed it simply because it was the most effective.
Your objective is to have fun, mine is to make money. To each his/her own.
Nonetheless, creating a new build should be fun.

I misread the poll page and voted for the first, but wanted to vote for the second.

Well thats all I have to add, and probably nothing constructive, but I've been away, so pardon my ignorance.

The undead Mesmer · Nov 12, 2005, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

OK guys...add WHIRLING DEFENCE to the list of skills that enemies run away from.

new posibility for runners ^^ yust as running mesmers (i know a stupid idea but it might work) a Me/E with fast casting and fire skills whill surely scare away the mobs

aron searle · Nov 12, 2005, 12:31 PM // 12:31

THIS update to fix the update SUCKS

NOW when i hydra farm they run away, and the STAND THERE for about 3-5 seconds DOING NOTHING, farming is now still just as easy but as boring as hell, it used to be FUN.

******and intelligent a.i my bumhole, how is standing there doing nothing intelligent.*********

at least before they would DAMAGE you.

The undead Mesmer · Nov 12, 2005, 12:33 PM // 12:33

whell with the new glitch they kill you in 2 hits so be happy

aron searle · Nov 12, 2005, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Ok now CYCLONE AXE makes them run away.

IS IT APRIL THE 1ST AND NO ONE IS TELLING ME.

unienaule · Nov 12, 2005, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

Now I cannot change my build in the sense that I'm more flexible.
I do not have a choice.
A new maximum spike dmg build will replace the old max AoD build.
A forced perspective once more.
The game will relentlessy cry out for THE BEST, and only THE BEST.
I had other very good and flexible builds except Renewal or Echo Nuker.
But in the end people questioned my waste of effectiveness, so I skilled Fire 16.
Now they will still only take me if my effectiveness is 100%.

Echo Fire was never the best build. Popular opinion was that it was, because it looks like stuff is dying. I could do the same amount of damage as an earth ele and they'd say I suck even though stuff dies at the same rate.

Gwendalyn_Sedai · Nov 12, 2005, 12:36 PM // 12:36

ok, I have mixed sentiments about this update...
And I apologize for the length of this post. ALSO, there's suggestions intermingled in there SOMEWHERE..

For one, I welcome the fact that other elementalist specs will be more welcome in the PvE aspect..since Fire is not what it could..or rather should be. Moreover, the skill bars will change up a bit since I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say that 95% of all ele's take at least 3 of the following (not counting res signet): Meteor Shower--I am sure was on All skill bars for PvE, FireBall, Firestorm, Searing Heat, Flare.

So, kudos to you Anet for making the ele PvE less cookie cutter.

BUT

like many have said, spells like Meteor Shower are now completely worthless.. Fire WAS balanced by its high energy cost, the vast number of skills that caused exhaustion, cast time, and recharge time.

the reply to this "gripe" as some have called it, is to rethin your skill bar.. or have others work together to aid your AoE such as Meteor SHower.

my reply:
I agree, this update does require more thinking to be put in to making a team or at least teamwork... but how often have you joined a crappy PUG? (think back to the Ascension quests and shudder).. ok.. think Thirsty River with the monk boss and priest and the mobs surrounding them.
It gets hectic in there, PUGs are 70/30 in terms of efficiency, and it's hard enough for some people just to listen to WHEN to attack. Of course, this is all happenstance.

THe bigger problem I see is in the lower levels.. say when you are only allowed 4 to 6 players on a team.
2 spots go to monk and a tank.
2 spots left.. AoE was great to handle crowd control... but how viable is AoE at this stage? Is it really feasible for the 2 other players (the monk being excluded) to be able to aid YOUR build at this point?
It seems that if you want an ele, you are going to need either another ele, or a trapper ranger.. for any hope of AoE to be anywhere near an efficient skill..
Also, I am not even sure how efficient, say a hydromancer duoing with a pyro mancer would be.
Last night, when I was trying to collect a few things..which is going to take much much longer now (unless ANET realizes that with the nerf in farming, they made collecting even more painful), I had DeepFreeze/Ice SPikes (switching between the two to decide which was better) on my bar along with MS.

Cast echo
Cast MS
Cast Deep Freeze
(3rd rock lands--1st hit on mobs..)
Mobs have 90% speed reduction
cast MS
(all the while, targeting the healer..)
even with a 90% reduction speed, the mob was still able to move out of MS.

to solve the issue, I added Meteor to the skill bar.

cast echo
cast ms
cast deep freeze (glyphed with lesser btw)
3rd rock hits
mobs frozen with 90%
cast Meteor to knock them down quickly again
Cast MS
(once again targeting the healer)
the punk still lives..

stats were
15 (11+4) Fire
13 (10+3) Energy
11 (10+1) Water
or something like that (only 1 unused attribute point)

so, in a 4 person team in PvE.. yes, I believe that Fire AoE..or perhaps any AoE, is ineffective..
Moreover, for there to be a chance for a single player ele to be effective with fire, it seems like now instead of just the aforementioned skills above, the player would also have to add DeepFreeze/Ice SPikes/Grasping Earth/Ward against foes/ etc...

Like I said before, Anet's attempt to improve gameplay and make PvE more challenging, I welcome. Also, I like the idea that this would require more thought when putting together a team for PvE.
However, there's theory and then there's the reality.

Good PUGs are rare.. many people refuse to bend from their skill bar..even "forgetting" to bring res.

Fire AoE seems to be worthless..especially so at lower levels.

Farming (not for just gold, but the damn collector items) becomes a pain in the ass. Sure, this will force people to trade more often with others.. but think back to shouting for items in Augury.. chances are that 7 times out of 10 the collector items you bought were from somebody who intentionally farmed them or got them as "other" drops from a farming run. Also, the collectors' items will now become more scarce..because, let's face it.. how many people are going to want to even attempt to farm minotaurs for horns now? I used to just farm my collector horns myself and give away w/e i had not use for. But, those who farmed for their own collector items, i am sure are a lot more apprehenscious about going to collect in the desert now. I am sure that even the farmers for these items will rethink this money making scheme. So items become more scarce, prices go up, people either shell out money they had pre=patch, or refuse to pay.. and (here's the contradictory nature of this update) will inevitably spend MORE time trying to farm for their item than they would before the update. nice. OR
prices will go down, once sellers realize that their items are not selling (though I doubt that...since items will become scarce rather quickly)
and people will buy them..creating the scarcity all over again (it's economics..) and we still inevitably end up with people farming for much longer periods of time than they normally would.

SOLUTION (look here Anet!)
Choose any of the following, multiple answers allowed and preferred..
a) Reduce the amount of items for collectors-- instead of say 5 minotaur horns, how about 3? (btw, does anyone else think that 5 bleached shells is a little much ><)
b) Increase drop rates (essentially unnerf that patch from..when was it? June?)
c) Increase the Speed of effect in AoE skills.. for example, MS actually hits the enemy only 3 times.. and there's what? 9-12 meteors that strike the earth.. why not make it every other meteor that hits? instead of every 3rd
d) decrease recharge of AoE Skills
e) Log into system tools and find a System Restore Check point for sometime before November 9th.

Keep at it Anet. I appreciate the attempt, but I look forward to some sort of resolution.
Sorry once again for the long post ><

The undead Mesmer · Nov 12, 2005, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Ok now CYCLONE AXE makes them run away.

IS IT APRIL THE 1ST AND NO ONE IS TELLING ME.

:O omg thats fun

maybe they also run away from wells :3

Loralai · Nov 12, 2005, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Interestingly, many of the arguments people have made in support of this change is the tired "maybe other underused classes will have a chance now." My first character was a ranger, second, a mesmer, and I never had any problem finding PUGs. If it ever took longer than I wanted to wait, I started my own group and went from there. And then it was my choice as to who or what profession I wanted in the group.

Now if I need someone to do my taxes, and my trash collector offers to do them, I'm most certainly going to ponder that situation first. If I need a fire nuke, I get one. If I need a ranger, that's what I get. Rather than everyone complaining about underused professions and the inability to get in PUGs, why not complain to ANet and ask for them to alter the missions and quests to the point where said professions become essential, or at a minimum extremely viable. Don't complain to those people who pick up the professions they need in order to complete whatever task they are attempting.

I think these complaints are more centered around the 5-man farm, with the typical tank, 2 monk, 2 nukes set-up. (I've said it more than once.) THAT is the situation that the "unused classes" are upset about. I'm turning the tables on you this time. Rather than spending your time telling fire nukes to change their builds or experiment, why not spend it developing your OWN 5-man build centered around YOUR skill set. That's what we did, so why can't you?

unienaule · Nov 12, 2005, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

And for those who are concerned (I won't say "whining" but others have ) about farming, why in Dwayna's name do you think you should be able to solo some of the highest level areas to farm? How realistic is that expectation? I mean, if you could in the past -- and if that wasn't intended or balanced -- does that mean it should be left for players to do so indefinitely? No criticism for farmers, not at all. But in a game built on strategy and teamwork, like Guild Wars, it simply doesn't seem to me that it's reasonable to ask to play the highest end content as a solo player.

That seems to indicate they are not in favor of farming with solo players, and with the comments about teamwork, might lead one to believe they want an 8-man team for a reason.

aron searle · Nov 12, 2005, 12:58 PM // 12:58

i really really wish they would just take it away, and bring it back when its fixed.

I do not like the update whatsoever, but i can adapt.

However in its current state its a joke.

Anet are making themselves look like incompetents.